*This article contains SPOILERS
Following the release of Terminator: Dark Fate in the U.S, the studios behind the latest instalment in the Terminator franchise appear to have given the greenlight for websites and publications to begin releasing more substantial information regarding, cast, story and the motivation behind THAT one scene.
Terminator creator and legend, James Cameron, was at a roundtable interview with the entertainment press, when the subject of Terminator: Dark Fate’s infamous opening scene arose.
Jim said:
“The idea that we whack John in the first 30 seconds, that was my idea. I said, ‘If we really want to surprise the audience and we want to get everybody off balance…
James Cameron – Transcribed by IGN
It’s like we’ve invested so much across the first two films and then to some degree or other in the subsequent ones, that I wasn’t involved with, in this whole John Connor mythology. It’s like, ‘Let’s just get that right off the table. Let’s just pull the carpet out from underneath all of our assumptions of what a Terminator movie is going to be about. Let’s just put a bullet in his head at a pizzeria in the first 45 seconds.”
IGN went on to state that Edward Furlong‘s John Connor was originally intended to have more screen-time in the scene, including more dialogue with Sarah Connor but due to the visual effects not being good enough, it got cut down.
“was always meant to be quite tiny, and just as a springboard for the story to show Sarah’s ultimate trauma from which she only begins to recover right at the end of the new film. She’s driven by hatred, by revenge. … Her badassery comes from a place of deep hurt and deep pain.
James Cameron – Transcribed by IGN
We never really planned much — there were never any other scenes of John other than that opening set-piece. ”
It’s difficult to imagine that James Cameron, the same James Cameron who took great displeasure in David Fincher‘s Alien 3 killing off Hicks (Michael Biehn) and Newt (Carrie Henn) at the start of the movie, would suggest an opening scene to Terminator: Dark Fate which would mirror that very same fate.
Of the demise of Newt and Hicks, Jim said:
“I thought [the decision to eliminate Newt, Hicks, and Bishop] was dumb. I thought it was a huge slap in the face to the fans. [Alien 3 director] David Fincher is a friend of mine, and he’s an amazing filmmaker, unquestionably. That was kind of his first big gig, and he was getting vectored around by the studio, and he dropped into the production late, and they had a horrible script, and they were re-writing it on the fly. It was just a mess. I think it was a big mistake. Certainly, had we been involved we would not have done that, because we felt we earned something with the audience for those characters.”
James Cameron – Aliens’ 30th anniversary – io9
Terminator: Dark Fate director Tim Miller, also recently spoke of the notorious scene from the new Terminator movie, giving his motivations behind it…
Esquire asked:
“Without spoiling the big scene you referenced earlier, is it fun to pull the rug out from under audiences, and establish an anything-goes vibe from the get-go?”
Nick Schager – Esquire
Tim Miller replied:
“I wouldn’t say that “fun” is a word I’d use when describing that scene [laughs]. But I would say that I did feel like it was great to splash some cold water on the audience’s face and say, okay, this is not going to be what you thought.
Tim Miller
Fairly late in the game, we actually tried something where you didn’t find out about that [scene’s bombshell] until late, in the hotel room, which I thought was an interesting structure. But oddly enough, watching the movie with that scene in that place, it really changed a whole lot of stuff in a negative way. And it doesn’t do what we all talk about, which is that you want the audience to sit up and take notice right at the beginning, by wiping the board clean.”
Tim Miller also spoke to THR about the decision to kill John…
“You’d think it [killing John off] was probably a controversial decision, but it really wasn’t. There was a lot of talk at the really early stages of should this new savior be someone who was connected to the Connors? Should it be John’s daughter or something like that? Which I was always against, because I’m just not a fan of the Chosen One sort of movie as much as I am of a hero sort of rising to meet adversity, who could be an everyman or an everywoman. I identify with those people much more than I do with Neo in The Matrix or King Arthur or something like that. So I was all for this being some new person that wasn’t connected to the Connors and had been chosen by the hand of fate.”
Tim Miller
… on fuelling Sarah Connor and clearing way for new characters…
“We all knew a couple of things. One: Sarah Connor is not a happy character. She is best when she is driven and tragic and you need some rocket fuel for that. You can’t have John be a 36-year-old accountant somewhere. And really, when you think about it, he could be sort of a pathetic figure as a man who had missed his moment in history and was relegated to this banal, ordinary existence, when in fact had Sarah not chosen to destroy Cyberdyne, he would be the leader of humanity. Nobody wants to see that. Secondly, [John’s death], that’s rocket fuel for Sarah. And lastly, you need to clear the stage for these new characters. They are not going to be able to have their moment, or come into their moment, with John hanging around. There’s just no good way to do that.”
Tim Miller
… and finally Tim wanting to slap audiences in the face by killing John.
“Everybody was in pretty strong agreement, and the way to start it, was really, you want to have this dramatic impact. You want to slap the audience in the face and say, ‘Wake up. This is going to be different.’ I feel like that accomplished that. I hate the violence of it. I hate the idea of a kid being shot, but the dramatic fuel that it gives the story is kind of undeniable.”
Tim Miller
It very much appears to be the case that the opening scene of Terminator: Dark Fate, in which young John Connor (Jude Collie with Edward Furlong’s T2 likeness) is terminated by young T-800 Carl (Brett Azar with Arnold Schwarzenegger’s T2 likeness), was simply used for its shock factor and as a means to start a new trilogy without being bogged down with fan expectations – though the almost dismissive phrasing, used by James Cameron and Tim Miller, to explain it to the audience and fans doesn’t exactly help the matter.
What do you think – was it a mistake to terminate a Terminator legend OR was it an inspired strategy to restart the stalling franchise?
Leave a comment…
25 Comments
IN-LORE here how this scenario works as shown in opening scene (IMO):
“you can only defend yourself against things you actually remember”
and sadly Commander Connor did not foreseen this (especially from an obliterated future war-timeline), basically a considerable time before sending the original T800 to 1984 and T1000 to 1995, Skynet scattered a group of T800s (say 5 or 8) into a time period between let’s say September 1997 and early 2010s with the primary objective to rendezvous with the nearest Skynet-friendly facility to confirm the teleportation/time-jumping capabilities of the TDE, plus maybe gather some extra helpful intel along the journey for Skynet, had the cycle of T1/2’s future war and course of history carried on “as intended”, Connor would have likely never encountered them and it wouldn’t be a stretch to say that most of them ended up stranded and/or too damaged upon arrival into the post-nuclear apocalypse, and i think Skynet had more then sufficient time to completely delete the tracks/logs of those departures to prevent the resistance detecting their exact arrival times and locations (unlike with the 80s T800 and the 90s T1000 departures because as soon as those were done, Skynet’s consciousness was taken off-line).
now because the Connors and the reprogrammed T800 radically altered the course of history in T2JD, that future war timeline was obliterated however those straggling, lost T800s were still send off, they will still be arriving on their intended dates and destinations, so i imagine Carl and his “bros” arriving only to wonder around a bit, get confused at the still-present human civilization and lack of Skynet dominance, discovering that Master Skynet is completely gone the lost T800s switch to their one last Secondary Objective: TRACK DOWN AND ASSASSINATE JOHN CONNOR.
i hope that helps ):
That is nonsense. John Connor is replaced by a girl (Dani Ramos) and it goes straight on in the film structure as in T1 + T2. John Connors death is a slap in the face of the fans and so it was recorded. Now you (Tim and Jim) can see how you get out of the number again. They’re down with me.
The fan base had so many ideas about John Connor. What are you doing? Kill the main protagonist easily. Idiots who respond to the feelings of the fans!
I do not deny that the action is good. But the narrative and the content are junk.
I am happy that it slapt those f…king terrible fans, thanks to Jim and Tim miller. Congratulations Carl !!!!
These f…king john fans need to wake up. What were they thinking!!!!Making john alive and then what??? The same f..king chasing for john,saving him and the same judgement day happens,he becomes leader and then he will send kyle for F..king with Sarah ??? These loops will never end,if you don’t remove him.
Cameron understoods that,that’s why he along with other writers watched the three sequels after t-2 to see what went wrong and what is the cause of it,the failure. He found the answer. It was always john who is the cause.
So, he removes him for good. He blows two shotguns in john’s chest and kills him with the help of Carl.
Again, terminator’s main meaning isnot about bringing a light future,happy future, it was always about dark,gritty,fear,nightmare type future that you will get scared,hopeless,shocked when you will see it. T-1 did that, it made fans hopeless when t-800 kills kyle at the end and made Sarah alone. T-2 shows the judgement was going to happen. But in both t-1& t-2 ,there was hope- killing t-800 at the end,destroying skynet/cyberdine + killing t-1000 were hope. But,that doesn’t mean that they have reached the light future,they have just altered it, changed it. But, the truth- Sarah made it worst.
That shocking scene is the worst thing that Sarah made in t-2!!! That scene is the best comeback of those horrors,true meaning of t-1,2. It may destroyed the legacy of t-2, but it broughts the main meaning that we felt in t-1,2.
So, Jim did the right thing. Carl should have blast the shotgun into john’s head 6 times like t-800 did to wrong sarah in t-1. It would have slapt 6 times to these f…king fans. They need to wake up.
i am happy to see that scene. the scene was epic and and alternet version of t1,2.best scene.
I know, after hearing these things from me,most of the fans gonna use worst words against me,will call me idiots. But, the truth- they are idiots and blind t-fans who doesn’t know the true meaning of terminator.
lol.
You havent a clue. Go back to watching saturday morning cartoons.
Hey, did you read the news? The movie flops. I am glad that there will be no sequel. The fans researched in advance John’s death and thought: “Nope, for the fan-fuck” I spend no money. So it is right! Terminator Dark Fate has no soul like T2. Solid action. Not more. That is not enough for Terminatorfans.
A M – absolutely right!
Basically, it doesn’t make sense at all… Skynet sent the first two terminators to the past just before the resistance took control of the time machine and they sent Reese and the T800 back, just before the time machine was destroyed. The T800 from T3 was sent by Connor’s wife after war, and Salvation was from an time that nobody had ever described (when Connor was no leader yet), and time travel wasn’t there. T3, T4 were true to the first one.
There is no need to comment on the stupidity shown by Genisys and Dark Fate. Nanotechnology that loses cohesion when magnet is applied? Why would someone waste energy on cell adhesion in nanotechnology? Mixed two parallel future together? T800 that is switched to learn and feel arrivals? Not barking dogs? And lots of more…. Did anyone really see the movie they were trying to follow up on?
And no. Basically T800 dont have to get older. If you have a organic matter on metal skeleton, you usually need oxygen, blood, nutrients…. that means… that flesh should be modified some organic matter, that have really great metabolism, because it can still heal itself. But this is something I don’t mind.
For example … in Salvation, there was a scene where Connor discovers a lab where Skynet’s T800 fabric is being tested to grow it later … quite a pity they didnt expanded more. But it was under Sony – just remember the last Venom and PG13 situation 😀
First 4 terminators make sense, except date, even if they are not perfect.. But that is because there was decades between t1 and T3, T4. But last two is some kind of clusterfuck.
And action is really bad.
Its classic Hollywood cliches… its hard to feel something, when somebody felt from 20m in a car and nothing happened to him. You can do it in Fast and Furious franchise. Same with MCU. But this is a world that has certain rules with a story focused on characters. The FF is not character-oriented, and Marvel has a very cleverly crafted worlds, including the feedback they give when you making movie. It’s very different genre and movies.
I read this today:
“If you’re simply looking for a good time with robots, explosions, and epic highway chases”
– yes. That’s exactly last Dark Fate. But at least it’s not as stupid as the roof scene of a Genesis helicopter. It looked like GTA gameplay. (when they falling and they tried to raise throttle).
The only thought that is interested, and it is the closest reality that Ai will soon begin to war with himself, because it will be like a competitor more than with other species (humans). I don’t like people who think about AI based on thought stereotypes (because they fear – the usual reason for prejudice).
But i must admit… after 4 beers, watching DF can be fun 😛
ps: but i think Connor cant be compared with Newt. Newt was secondary character, she wasnt even deuteragonist. She was only in second part added by Cammeron. But Connor existence was in center of the plot from opening of the first movie and started all of this.
Eliminating John is not a problem for me. People die in reality – the hero doesn’t always make it. We need a new story.
A new story? So basically kill John and replace him with a girl and rename the AI to Legion? But everything else is basically the same? That kind of ‘new’ story? Nope.
I agree with you, Kevin. Eliminating John isn’t an issue to me either though I do believe they could have done better with casting the new hero. No issues with the hero being a minority and a female either, just wish it was a more believable actress. We never saw John at all in the first movie and it was good. I think it was time to move on from John as well.
i think jim finally gave in that soylent goodness he has achieved the ultimate cuckery by instead of trying to refresh john’s story and scrap the cringe performances of Bale and the other dude Clarke i guess, he goes full soylent mode with “muh gurl powers” and what is even worse is that he shits even on sarah’s character by making her a drunk failed to protect her son mother…
Linda deserved better, glad she dumped that cuckboy of a joke jim the cuck cameron!
The scene was the most powerful and emotional scene of all the movie. As a fan of series it did hurt but from the other side it was what the Terminator should be all about, it’s relentless, it’s strong, it’s intense and it’s real. The t-800 has found you, you didn’t expect it, you are dead.
What I felt that I didn’t like at the end of the movie is was not the absence of John Connor, it was basically the non existence of Skynet and the t-800 anymore. I know the Legion is basically the same thing..but I didn’t like the CGI-ed jumping Rev models..For me the Terminator is the cold, fearsome, metal endosceleton, sometimes covered with living tissue, ruthless, it feels no pain, no remorse and it will absolutely never ever stop. It is something the opening scene perfectly illustrates..that’s why the later shown domesticated family oriented, diaper changing, carpenter Carl will never quite sit correctly for me. That is the weakest point of the movie for me. I understand that the the t-800 has an AI processor and he completed his mission but that was too much.
It was a mistake. James betrayed himself and his legacy for money.
I guess I could’ve overcome the death of John Connor if the rest of the movie had been any good…
They talk about starting from a clean slate, but the whole structure of the movie is exactly the same as in T2: one villain Terminator goes back in time to kill an important resistance leader in the future and someone else from the same future is sent at the same time to protect the protagonist.
At least, Salvation tried to walk a different path which wasn’t all that bad.
I think Salvation was good. If they made more brutal script, cut CGI bull*hit like big giant robots, made better execution (like he pierced Connor lung and explained heart failure), it will be really nice movie.
“I guess I could’ve overcome the death of John Connor if the rest of the movie had been any good…”
Exactly how I felt about it. If you’re going to kill off such a loved character, make it worthwhile. The rest of the film was fairly weak though. ‘John died for this?!’
I enjoyed Salvation a lot. Terminator “fans” didn’t and yet it was a continuation to John’s story. It’s tough to please this crowd. T2 made it hard for anything to follow as it was so well done.
John’s cast in Salvation was crap, including the screenplay. John Connor is not an action hero. He is a leader, a general, a mastermind.
I think Connor was really good. You know … A guy who didn’t want this future, tried to be distant, tried to deny … its usually normal with traumatic experience. He usually have a harder skin (because he has to protect the psyche to need to process that things and to be concentrated, the brain must also write memories from short to long memory), but eventually he accepted this future…. even screensplay was quite shallow. But it was something like Batman Begins – beginning of John Connor. I think Bale might be the best Badd Ass Connor he ever was (just look at his movies).
But yeah. Screensplay was really bad.
The Steel Emperor, Machine Intelligence Skynet, with its overwhelming, armored superiority on Advanced War Machines in the Future War to eradicate the threat of humanity to itself, can not win an action hero. I’ve always thought of John Connor as a tinkerer and thinker. In T2, look at the scene in his nursery.
The young cast by Furlong was perfect. The child was physically weak, vulnerable, but self-confident and determined to do his thing, also banned, of course, and not a mainstream idiot. Then the short intro scene in T2 with Edwards John Connor. Only a leader, a mastermind, could deal with machine intelligence, free themselves from Skynet’s death camps, and build human resistance. How they all lovingly salturize before him in the intro. This is John Connor, the leader of the human (not American) resistance we want to see. In the end, they can even incorporate their one-world government from the remnants of humanity that Hollywood likes to use, because it really is the logical consequence of an organized rebuilding of humanity after its nemesis (Pan-Spermia or God created man, man created the machine, machine killed man) would be.
By the way, Terminator combat units do not drive trucks. The representation of Skynet’s industrial-military war complex in Salvation (and the representation of Skynet itself, as well as in Geneysis) resembled a BASF complex. Too human, too little thought in the role of the machine.
Machine intelligence does not need a truck driver for its vehicles and war machines. So thought too short and went into mainstream. I mean, are the toddlers at work? How stupid does it have to be? The Skynet headquarters have pyramids form as in ancient Egypt (Cheops? Haha … Longer … 10,000 years .. Saurid in Arabia history). Skynet as God (definition of God is omnipotent) could have ascended the first contact with an alien power in the stars (Orion, Sirius) or vice versa.
Perhaps at some point in their development, life forms erase themselves by building machine intelligence, leaving only machines in the universe.
Something about Miller interview:
“Skynet was gone, how could it still be sending back Terminators?” That’s smart thinking. But, as per Miller’s statement, it sent Terminators back to various times before it was destroyed, they just happened to arrive after. Time travel!
Its not possible. Because Skynet doesnt exist and send new Terminators?
– Yes. But its not a time travel. Its possible, but in that moment Skynet is freaking cat in box!! So its multiverse and he send them from different timeline 😛 But even if its cat with Heisenberg, they can still step on a butterfly in a bar!!! 😀
In fact, he made me laugh with this interview – in a good way. I hope to make a good movie in the future, even though he made a Terminator I really doesnt like 😀 But i must admit, movie is good, if it would not be Terminator 😀 But pleaaaseeee!!!! Not Gibson!!!!!!!!! 😀 😀 😀
I am really glad that i am only in game industry 😀 And i don’t mind if they killed Connor. But they switch him. That’s different.