The termination of John Connor in Terminator: Dark Fate is a sore point for many Terminator Fans, dividing an already fractured fanbase even more.
Some fans accept the big change and accept the film as a true sequel to Terminator 2 but some fans (including us) have chosen to ignore the movie as being canon.
For us it wasn’t necessarily the death of John which disallows Dark Fate from being canon but the fact that we simply did not like the removal of the stakes from the first two movies, and don’t feel it sits in the same world as the movies Directed by James Cameron (regardless of his involvement in this one).
As stated, there are many different opinions but even many people who like the movie state that killing John, and the way it played out, was a mistake.
One of the issues we (and many other fans) have raised is that killing John impacts on watching the first two movies in a negative way. When you watch them back the stakes and importance of keeping John alive are completely nulled, thus making the story and replacement McGuffin saviors like Dani Ramos pointless, that is unless you ignore Terminator: Dark Fate from the canon of the first two movies altogether, this immediately fixes the problem for those fans that take issue with plot decisions made, or found the movie lacking in any regard.
Alien 3 has a similar problem with the deaths of Newt and Hicks but those characters were not as ingrained in the Alien lore, from day one, in the way John is/was with Terminator. Alien 3 and the decision to kill off two beloved characters infuriated Aliens fans, so why would this be any different for T2 fans?
James Cameron himself stated that killing Newt and Hicks was a “dumb” idea then proceeded to senselessly mirror it with Dark Fate.
“I thought it was dumb [that Hicks and Newt were killed off]. I thought it was a huge slap in the face to the fans. I mean look, [David] Fincher’s a friend of mine, and David is an amazing, amazing filmmaker, unquestionably. That was kind of his first big gig, and he was getting vectored around by the studio, and he dropped into the production late and they had a horrible script and they were rewriting it on the fly, and it was just a mess. I think it was a big mistake. So I certainly — had [producer Gale Anne Hurd and I] been involved, we would not have done that because we felt we earned something with the audience with those characters.”
SDCC panel (2016)
It seems that Linda Hamilton knew this would be a problem for Terminator fans and that it would upset them…
This is going to upset a lot of people and a lot of the fan base who just think that it has to remain true to the first two stories. The whole concept of Terminator, that John Connor is the hope for the future of mankind and then to have him cut down like that. I think it’s going to upset a lot of people!
Linda Hamilton told Film Stories
… but regardless she defended James Cameron’s decision to kill John, and thought it was an interesting place for her character (Sarah Connor) to come back to the franchise on.
“I don’t think Sarah and John would be there at all if they were still fine and strong. I thought it was a great leaping-off point for my character. To create a new fuel and fire for Sarah Connor, I thought it was a very good story point. I’m not one that clings to past ideas… I just think it’s much more interesting to launch from a new place.”
Linda Hamilton told The Hollywood Reporter
Brett Azar (Young Terminator Bodydouble) told TheTerminatorFans.com how Linda Hamilton oversaw and took control of the scenes involving her younger counterpart (Maddy Curley), and Brett’s young ‘Carl’ role in assassinating young John (Jude Collie).
Linda Hamilton really took control of Sarah Connor’s reaction to that, because she was there for it, she wanted to see- like, she wanted to make sure that it was as intense enough to be believable for her, she was so… personal with that reaction of seeing John shot, and she wanted to make sure that it was done justice, so she took control of that whole fight scene and uh, it was funny ‘coz we were doing the fight rehearsal and her [Linda Hamilton / Sarah Connor] stunt double, Maddie, did what we were choreographing, and she [Linda] goes ‘No, no no! It’s gotta be- you know, she knows, she’s smart. She’s not gonna just try to punch this guy in the head; it’s not gonna do much. She’s gonna go after the gun – she knows the gun is what’s gonna do the damage’.
Brett Azar told TheTerminatorFans.com
So, she goes like ‘Okay Brett, get into your position and… ‘ so I walk up and I hold the gun and she jumps on my back, grabs the gun barrel and elbows me in the lip, and turns around and scratches my face – she clicked into Sarah Connor and it was so cool! But she was beating the sh*t outta me. So after that she clicks out and she goes: ‘See! That’s how it’s supposed to be!’ and then she was like ‘Oh my god, Brett, I’m so sorry!’ and I was like ‘No, don’t worry, they CGI my face – do whatever you want.’ So, she was so cool.”
What was apparent from talking to Brett was how seriously Linda Hamilton took the scenes, she had already stated in other interviews that she was worried about letting fans down.
*Scroll down for our full Youtube video interview with Brett Azar.
Linda Hamilton elaborates to Film Stories more on the filming of John Connor’s death…
I was there only to give guidance, I guess.
Linda Hamilton told Film Stories
You know not really in any supervisory role, but [director] Tim [Miller] wanted me to bear witness, since she is the woman that they cast for her body mostly, for resembling Sarah Connor back in the day. And it was really hard to watch on every level and just the way that she fought.
She was an actress and a good actress in her own right, but not Sarah Connor and I had very little control over how she performed.
I did step it up right away and say “no, no, no, no, no you can’t just toss her aside! She’d get back up, you can’t just hold Sarah, you know she’d be biting, scratching, elbowing, grabbing his arm.”
I remember telling the stunt man and this woman that you’ve got to fight harder, this is your son that he is shooting to bits and she would grab – oh and it’s not Arnold either – so she would grab Arnold’s body double and she’s grabbing his arm and I’m like “No grab the arm with the gun! Not just any arm the one with the gun!” [laughs a lot]
And you know to try to teach someone right there how to be fierce, how to be Sarah Connor, was an edgy moment and then they put my face, younger face on digitally.
So I had almost nothing to do with that scene, they assembled it… so I had to match her performance vocally because they put my face onto her body, but they had to match her performance with my face and I had to match… Oh my god it was so confusing and not very satisfying! [laughs]
Whether you liked Dark Fate or not, you could take the view that it was one of the greatest ‘what if?’ scenarios for a Terminator movie… they killed John but whether he will stay dead in the future of the franchise is another question all together.
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24 Comments
Alien was wery different case.
Alien 3:
– Newt was only in second movie
– Newt wasnt part of main story. Only secondary character
– her death… I actually like it. First Alien is horror, not action family blockbuster… Back to the roots was really nice movement.
– there is no war or other global conflict
Terminator:
– John is basically spine of the story from Terminator 1 opening scene
– All four Terminators is about Johns future
– Newt wasnt leader of human kind…
– spine of the story is War against the machines
I wouldn’t mind if they killed John. I think it would be really nice to end this franchise that way. But not only did they kill him. They replaced him, erased him and wanted to continue as if nothing had happened. Death of the Newt wast beginning of the final chapter. And Jons death? Beginning of the next soft reboot with different actors…
When i am thinking more and more about Cameron… He is guy with roller coaster and perfectionism. I am not sure if this is enough in these days…
There is no direct comparison to be made about Newt and John, we were just pointing out Cameron condemning killing off beloved characters from Aliens, then ironically doing the same with Dark Fate. As we stated Newt is nowhere near the level of importance to the Alien universe as John is to Terminator’s. The problem isn’t necessarily killing John, it was the way it was done and yes it was tactless and all in aid of a veiled reboot/transparent restart/torch pass.
John Connor ersetzen oder töten beendet die Geschichte.
Warum hat man sich nicht an:
Planet of the Appes: Survival
orientiert?
Terminator Geschichte: Ein Mensch vereint und führt den Rest der Menschen – Ebarmen. Menschheitsgeschichte Ende. Themen um den letzten Moment. Die Hoffnung auf Besseres.
Gruß aus Deutschland
Erbarmen.
Look, I feel gifted that Linda took on the role of Sarah one last time. However taking out John is, was and always will be the worst scripted decision ever over anything bad about T3 TS and TG . Did I buy Dark Fate ? yes on 4k blu ray I watched it once and never again, Seriously compare Carl to the T-800 in the first film ? How hard can it be to make another excellent Terminator film.
Mmm hard to make another terminator repeat.
Wouldnt it make sense to show the evolution of the t800 and how he progresses from t2.
Well thats the movie we got and i for one am glad we did
I feel that, yes, if you are making ANY sort of Terminator film, you are obligated to remain true to the first two films.
Take that however you want, that doesn’t mean you can’t necessarily sideline John Connor or leave him out of the story – but if the film negates, nullifies or attempts to rewrite the original mythology WE DON’T WANT IT!
So yes, Linda. Take note. If you are making a Terminator movie, it MUST honor the first two films. Anything less and the fans will not accept it.
386/5000
In English:
Replacing or killing John Connor ends the story.
Why didn’t you look at:
Planet of the Appes: Survival
oriented?
greetings from Germany
Terminator story: One person unites and leads the rest of the people
Mercy. Human history end. Topic issues. The hope for better.
People turn against themselves.
Eu penso que destruíram por completo o filme com a realização do filme destino sombrio.
A minha opinião para salvar o filme deveriam fazer filmes sobre como jonh Connor criou os rebeldes desde o lançamento da guerra nuclear e as batalhas do futuro com melhor pormenor e como enviou kyle reese para o passado.
Ou então fazer como fizeram em star war a contar histórias de personagens e neste caso falar sobre Jonh Connor, kyle reese ou outras personagens.
Nos queremos ver o futuro, estamos cansados de viagens no tempo.
Agora era concluir de modo a fazer um loop.
De certeza teria sucesso na minha opinião, contando com mais detalhe o futuro da guerra contra as máquinas e vermos essas batalhas e aventuras.
Ils ont tué John si facilement …c’est inacceptable pour nous les fans que ce soit des 2 premiers où même des suivants car quand tu regardes Genisys John connor à eu le mérite d’y être dans l’histoire avec une évolution et un basculement du côté des 2 camps de la guerre menant skynet et humains mais je pense que la grosse erreur et surtout cracher sur les fans de la franchise c’est pas d’avoir tuer John c’est de l’avoir facilement rendu pour mort dans une scène d’ouverture aussi parti qu’il soit venu au monde. John c’est lui qui a envoyé kyle dans le passé pour protégé sa mère sans john sarah n’aurait aucun sens de vivre actuellement dans cette timeline de même pour kyle reese quant on sait qu’il est né dans le futur et mort dans le premier film en 84….
Pourquoi ne pas le faire revenir dans un futur au côté de sa mère et son père pour de bon mettre fin à L’IA des machines dans un tout nouvel épisode consacré que à cameron et son script à lui seul dans un tout univers post apocalyptique comme la fait terminator renaissance ?
I thought Terminator: Dark Fate was gonna be a good movie until they started to kill John Connor at the beginning of the movie where the movie actually got way worse but the problem is that the terminator movies ended a long time ago when John and Sarah destroying all of the equipment that Skynet needed but I don’t get why they cannot reboot the terminator franchise by replacing Arnold Schwarzenegger with a different actor and try to make the story different like putting Robocop in the franchise or the Predator franchise.
Sarah Conner played by Linda Hamilton is entirely in danger from Terminator franchise she was so fucked up from everything with the main character t-101 Terminator Arnold. it didn’t make sense when James Cameron produced to Terminator movies execpt 1 & 3-D time across he directed same as T2 as he was the opposite of Kevin Flynn from Tron 1 & 2 with Linda she may be the opposite of Clu with the main Terminator movie maker creater producer Gale ann Hurd the opposite of Alan Bradley the user of Tron/Rinzler , as a hero tron is the opposite of the terminator from t2,t3 & t5 as Rinzler t1,t4 not sure about t6 is complicated.
Sarah Conner play by Linda Hamilton the first is in terrible danger from everything in Terminator franchise her whole life and her sanity was so f**ked up and surrounded by a an evil nightmare. She was a desperate woman and she’s not what they think she is to them but her personality is the opposite of John Spartan from Demolition man, Steven m Kovacs from The Cable Guy and Clu first in Yellow & second in White before Orange from tron 1 & 2 with James Cameron he is the opposite of Kevin Flynn same as David Ellison who has against John Conner who is the opposite of Jalen in Green as t-3000 the opposite of Abraxas in orange, With the main t-101 Terminator Arnold the opposite of Tron in Blue and White in T2,T3, & T5 as the opposite of Rinzler in Orange in T1,T4, & T5 i’m not so sure about T6 but the opposite of Elizabeth Swann from Pirates of the Caribbean 1,2,3,& 5, Ricky Ricardo from the Cable Guy, & Dr Cocktale from Demolition man, with the Terminator movie creater and producer Gale Anne Hurd the opposite of Alan Bradley from Tron 1 & 2.
Also Sarah Conner is the type of the opposite of Ashley from The Girl 2012.
But the only opposite version is that she’s not what they think she is is Goldie Hawn’s character in Overboard.
Even Dani Ramos the type opposite version of Rosa. Since Sarah says don’t touch and why not also saying to Terminator Carl get off me like Ashley saying that to Beto played by Luis Fernado Pena in the girl 2012? Sarah couldn’t push T 800 terminator back harder and scream louder with her strength of anger. But T800 Carl couldn’t help it and wouldn’t realize he’s screwed himself up and couldn’t tell her the truth correctly for what he did to her son John. He took the words right out of Sarah’s mouth when he finally terminate himself after destroying Rev-9. Dani doesn’t care how Sarah feels about better when carl killed him for John’s death if she’s sorry about John then she should also realized she’s screwed up too. it doesn’t make any sense why is Grace asking her is she okey she took the words right out of Dani’s mouth they only way to sense is T800 finally terminated himself Sarah says for John to the Terminator Carl dies Dani: Are you okey? Sarah Connor: I’m fine. THAT makes sense.
Time travel terminator movies and tv series in the year are 1973,1984,1995,1996,1997,1998,2004,2014,2017,2018,2020,2027,2032, & 2042.
Can you imagine if you go back in time in the beginning to re make and re fix the terminator storyline movies and tv series staring the first one between 1984-2029 before the. Part 2 in 1995-2029 before the tv series Sarah Conner chronicles in 1995-1996 the third in 1997 judgement day before 3D battle across time the fourth rise of the machines between 2004-2027 before the fifth salvation in 2017/2018 then the last one in part 6 known as dark fate genesys teaming up together the ultimate battle ft 2 t-800s one from the flashback in 1984 & the other one known as guardian pops/Carl with Sarah conner, Kyle Reese,Grace,Dani Ramos ft’s t-1000, rev-9/ Gabriel, with john Conner, & the resistance soldier who attacked their son known as t-3000 between 1973,1984,2020, 2029, & 2042?
The only ones fault was James Cameron it was all his idea who created terminator storylines when he directed 1 & 2 & battle across time 3D he also produced 2 & 6 the part when his ex wife Linda’s Sarah Conner character trying to kill Miles Dyson and his family after blowing up cyberdine systom computer machine at their home n part 2 except dark fate it didn’t make sense. That goes for David Ellison too who produced terminator 5 & 6 who has something against John Conner for no reason in part 5 the soldier who touch and killed john in 2029 after sending his father Kyle Reese in 1984 to protect sarah in 2018 he turned into 5-3000 in the last t6 same thing in the beginning the last terminator t-800 killed him off after the future was erased so the skynet doesn’t exist. No wonder James and Linda got divorced in 1999 and Edward took drugs for no reason. It’S All YOUR FAULT CAMERON & ELLISON.
And the director Tim Miller too who is the opposite of Brian Garfield the creator of Death Wish.
Even Dana Goldberg produced twice with them too she and David both hated John Conner character for no reason. Cameron the user of his second ex wife Linda, Ellison, and Goldberg the users of Brett Azar the second younger version of the Terminator Arnold are so useless who don’t make sense like that with no explanations who made all The Terminator picture scene backwards.
And of course Gale Anna Hurd the main creator, producer, and a writer is truly the user of T800/T850 Terminator Schwarzenegger from 6 Terminator movies except Battle Across Time 3-D she didn’t do. In 1996 she was doing The Ghost of Darkness and Tremers II: Aftershocks But that’s weird since Arnold didn’t really return to Salvation Roland Kickinger who played Arnold himself was playing his t-800 Terminator the first CGI looking like Arnold Schwarzennegger himself before Bret Azer took his place in part 5 & 6.
He’s right it’s all my fault I didn’t make any sense correctly with David Ellison’s, Dana Goldberg’s, and my ex wife Gale Anne Hurd. But it didn’t work out because it really wasn’t that easy to make sense basing on terminator storylines in alphabetical order. The only way I should do is direct Terminator 1 2 in 1995 with Kyle Reese who’s still alive instead of being killed in 1984 before he dies in 1995 before 3 Judgment day in 1998 early instead of waiting, producing Battle Across Time 3-D & T6, and writing the story 1,2,3, battle across time, before returning to write in T5 Salvation and T6: Dark Fate Genisys even Sarah Connor Chronicles in 1996-1997 early before Jugment Day in 1998 that should make sense as for Gale Anna Hurd good thing she makes sense producing 3 Terminator movies but unfortunately they didn’t make early in 1998 instead of Rise of the Machines in 2004 as a writer did in 1984 but she didn’t write it in Terminator 2 they only way to make Gale write in after 1984 is T2,and T6 as Dark Fate Genisys together in one based on T1 & T2 in in part 6 and as the additional crew T2, T5 Salvation, & T6: Dark Fate Genisys. That should definitely make perfect sense. that goes for David & Dana too Salvation-Dark Fate Genysis.
The biggest problem of killing John Conner is a military strategic one. The optimal strategy is to not only kill John Connor, but to kill Sarah Conner within the same opportunity. There is absolutely ZERO return for SkyNet (Legion) by having Sarah Conner remain alive while John goes the way of the Dodo. Killing Sarah means eliminating all known contingencies associated with her. James Cameron really wasn’t thinking when he called this shot.