*Disclaimer: This is a theory based on information obtained from the movies, interviews, and promotional material. Please remain calm.
A question on the lips of many Terminator Fans whilst watching the trailers for Terminator: Dark Fate was:
‘Why are they [the studios] using the Genisys endoskeleton design again?!‘
Well, we wondered this ourselves, but the simple answer could very well be that Skydance Media and Paramount Pictures had already commissioned, used, and owned, the Terminator Genisys design which was used in the fifth movie, and so, maybe it was just easier for them to drag it out from cloud storage and… reuse it… ?
But, what if the answer goes far deeper than that? What if the studios had something else in mind when they used the Genisys endoskeleton design… ?
What if we’re all, unconsciously, in the middle of the Skydance and Paramount Terminator trilogy already, and we just don’t realize it?
That would mean that Terminator: Dark Fate is the sequel to Terminator Genisys.
Let me explain…
At the end of Terminator Genisys the super computer is shown in *SPOILER* a mid-credits scene, to very much still be of function, somewhere in the rubble of Cyberdyne‘s headquarters – a scene which left the door wide open for a sequel…
‘But the sequel was canceled.’
Yes. Though following the financial failure of Terminator Genisys, producer Dana Goldberg hinted otherwise:
“I wouldn’t say on hold, so much as re-adjusting,”
Dana Goldberg told The Wrap
So, re-adjusting… to what, pray tell? That comment suggests that the studios weren’t anywhere near ready to pick up and walk away from Genisys – they’d paid good money after all, and they wanted the opportunity to try again…
“Even despite Genisys not playing as well as expected, he [David Ellison] didn’t want to give up, he still wanted to take another bite of the apple and he thought I might be a good candidate to help.”
Tim Miller told Den of Geek
‘But Dark Fate ignores installments 3, 4 and 5.’
Yes, that’s what we were told at the THR event back in 2017…
“This is a continuation of the story from Terminator 1 and Terminator 2. And we’re pretending the other films were a bad dream. Or an alternate timeline, which is permissible in our multi-verse.”
James Cameron told THR
Note the term ‘multi-verse‘ being used in conjunction with ‘alternate timeline‘ by James Cameron – though, following Dark Fate’s release, Tim Miller stated to an audience at TIFF (Toronto International Film Festival), that:
“So in the Terminator universe, there is only one timeline. If you change something in the past, the time wave rolls forward and changes the future.”
Tim Miller to TIFF
The idea of multiple, or alternate timelines, has very much become ingrained in the Terminator mythos, along with the many differing paradoxes and loops; to such an extent that what Mr. Miller said is actually at odds with the theme of franchise itself.
We are told that SkyNet no longer exists (goodbye 3 and 4, at the very least) but if alternate timelines were to exist, which is not implausible, at least not if we look at the theory of quantum superposition, which is:
“the peculiar circumstance in which particles seem to be in two or more places or states at once”
Scientific Amercian
…then there can be no such certainty that SkyNet does not exist in another timeline. Or, another future…
With the use of the Terminator Genisys endoskeletons in Terminator: Dark Fate – by means of the opening scene, and by the sheer fact that Arnold Schwarzenegger’s family orientated T-800 ‘Carl’, is from the very same future as the endos, it suggests that ‘Carl’ could actually be from the Genisys timeline.
Tim Miller stated that ‘Carl’ was a ‘Slow Bullet‘ – with all the connotations that come along with that very definition.
Tim said:
“There were definitely more of them. We called them “slow bullets” that Skynet fired.”
Tim Miller told ScreenCrush
Multiple ‘slow bullets’ means that despite *SPOILERS* ‘Carl’ being terminated at the end of the movie; there definitely could be more T-800’s from a Genisys future knocking about, waiting to strike at the leader of the human resistance, and that purely by their existence in the present (even if the instance of their original future has ceased to be… ), they would bring with them a strong sense of connection to Terminator Genisys, which would hit the proverbial ‘reset’ button on the decanonization of movie number five.
And then there’s Matt Smith…
In Terminator Genisys Matt Smith was the physical incarnation of SkyNet, a super-computer which utilizes (in this alternate timeline) the diabolical operating system named ‘Genisys’, to infiltrate (and dominate) the human race, to bring about a non too prescient future – wherein humans are slaves to technology and apps.
The writers of Terminator Genisys purposely chose to have the human embodiment of SkyNet be played by a male actor, with Matt Smith – which indicates that that aspect was to play a far bigger part in the sequel…
Now, I know that so far things have been a little bit messy, but please bear with me – I do appreciate your time:
Tim Miller has already indicated that ‘Legion‘ (the SkyNet rebrand) had a somewhat human origin…
“Legion is so powerful, the only way to beat it is going back in time and strangle it in the crib,”
Tim Miller told KCRW
Just in case you think I took the ‘crib‘ comment a little too literally… Legion isn’t simply of human origins – it’s male… director Tim Miller stated:
“what if Legion is winning in the future, and he knows the way he was created and the things that lead to his near-victory in the future, all of this stuff, he had to lose along the way?”
Tim Miller told io9
The complications brought about by changing the events of the present, or aspects seen as predetermined (Chaos theory / Butterfly effect), could explain that, in a timeline which was somewhat altered by the events of the fifth movie – that SkyNet / Genisys / the T-5000 simply became ‘Legion‘, and that ‘Alex‘ (Matt Smith) and his evolution / character arc, simply hadn’t been explored yet.
So, if Terminator: Dark Fate uses Terminator Genisys endoskeletons, and ‘Carl’ is from the now deleted timeline of the Genisys future, and SkyNet evolves into Legion – that would make Dark Fate the sequel to Genisys, and by extension, mean that we’re two movies in to a Terminator trilogy from Skydance Media and Paramount Pictures.
That’s it, that’s my thought process. Bag of cats emptied…
Leave a comment…
17 Comments
Who cares its been done
That kinda messed with my head. That might go some way to explain how Carl can exist…after Skynet supposedly ceases to be. Not to mention the teases we’ve gotten for announcements on Terminator 7…
Matt Smith’s Skynet did say to John Connor “I’ve come a long way”…and the writers did confirm he was referring to travelling the Multiverse…
I agree, it’s totally plausible but Genisys and Dark Fate don’t really deserve this much thought.
La idea es fascinante
pero existen algunos cabos sueltos al comparar las peliculas.
I was no fan of Genisys or Dark Fate but this article got me thinking. The idea that legion is just another version of a multiverse hopping Matt Smith skynet, really adds something to a pair of movies that didn’t have any substance. I visited your facebook looking for some real discussion surrounding the matter but I presume most people didn’t take the time to read or understand this piece 🙁 Their loss.
This is much more entertaining than Genisys and Dark Fate, and it has much more sense.
Wow! Even if it’s just speculation, it’s a fun one! I could get behind this.
Actually we can take Genisys as a sequel to Salvation, thus all these movies becomes one universe: in Salvation Kyle is going to get to John, but it wasn’t explained why. Probably because he met him before (the scene at the beginning if Genisys) and was ordered to stay on guard at observatory (maybe to gain some experience fighting terminators to become that real Kyle Reese we saw in the first film). They met again and kind of victorious at the end of Salvation, but John said it’s just the beginning, and they finally won the war at the start of Genisys, but it took years to win, both Kyle and John became older, and John already have the same scar he got fighting T800 at Salvation. Of course producers called Genisys “the reinvention”, but would’ve Kyle and John played by Yelchin and Bale, it would be a true sequel to Salvation as it bears too much from every previous film, including T800’s decapitation from Salvation (we do remember that Marcus trained Kyle for a while, and later Kyle kills T800 in Genisys using almost the same method Marcus killed it before). This means that Genisys was invisioned as the sequel first, but later was “readjusted” to become a remake.
It would have been nice, if the filmmakers would have put that much thought into Dark Fate.
In Genisys the endo was slightly redesigned to better fit the Body of Arnold. Most of the FX and prop companies also worked for T3, Salvation and Genisys as well as for DF. That’s why they kept the updated design.
It seems to me that the filmmakers should make a film (terminator7) that would unite Genesys with Dark Fate, and then make a Terminator 8 where the filmmakers will tell the end of the battle, whether it be the rescue of John Connor, or the war of John’s sons.that the T-850 related to John in T3 Rise of the Machines “Your childrens will become important”. remember?
This is close Genisys and Dark Fate was meant to be in the same timeline, but marketing thought it wouldn’t fly, so edit were made to dark fate. The studio also has a extended cut were both films flow into one another, they’re in talks with streaming platforms as to when and where to place it.
The reason the Endo was redesigned is for merchandising purposes.
The company that owns the designs to the Endo, StudioCanal, also owns the titles to T1&T2. This wouldn’t necessarily preclude them from using those designs in Genisys or Dark Fate, but it would require them to secure the consent from SC and they would definitely want a piece of the merchandise that came from it.
Basically, the endo was redesigned as a means to avoid paying royalties.
We previously speculated it was a way to save money around the release of Genisys. We also don’t buy this ‘fitting’ better inside Arnold nonsense either. Skydance and Paramount could have paid, why not? Also, when a Terminator design is used in a movie it becomes an asset of STUDIOCANAL, meaning the Genisys Endo became theirs too – unless there is a time period where they benefit by a % on potential merch, but the film failed to generate real merchandise… Let’s go back to the fact that Dark Fate overall cost upwards of 400 million, David Ellison is one of the richest people on the planet (so is Mr. Cameron) so why would they need to save money on a simple factor like an endoskeleton design? Especially when it could be used as a way to decanonize Dark Fate from being a ‘true T2 sequel’?
Hi I was thinking, maybe John Connor, YES, was saved by Pops in Terminator Genesys, why? Because in Dark Fate Carl killed John in 1998, but in Genesys Pops transported young Sarah and Kyle to the year 2017 So John could be gestated in 2018-19 or 20, so there is a possibility that John Connor will be reborn in the future. Did you understand? By transporting Sara and Kile to the future they saved John, because maybe they could conceive him years more late!!!
All Terminator storylines & movies sequels and tv series are ruined the only way make make all together storylines without ignoring each other in the beginning in 1984 is to keep Kyle Reese alive at the end of The Terminator 1984 before returning to T2 to keep protecting his son John with Sarah Conner he married before he dies at the end in 1995 after destroying the second terminator who was sent by Skynet to kill their John before the tv series the Sarah Conner chronicles in 1995-1996 before T3 judgement day in 1997 when john sent the t-800 terminator to help sarah protect her son from the T-1000 before 3D battle across time. In Terminator: Rise of the Machines in 2004 the fourth Terminator is the T-850 who looks exactly like the same Terminator Endoskeleton with the same head, hands, arms, legs, and body but the different shapes inside protecting John and Katherine Brewster from T-X Terminatrix kathrerine sent the t-850 to protect them because John Conner was dead in the future 2032 killed by the t-850 before katherine gave a new mission to protect them in 2004. The Salvation in 2017 John and Kate survive from the fate of dawn back in 2004 some people are dead and some survive meets and sees his father Kyle Reese who was a teenager battleing all terminators t-600 and the t-800. And now the last terminator sixth movie dark fate genisys in 2020 the year between 1973,1984,2029, & 2042 all together in the beginning from 1984 john sent his father back to 1984 to protect Sarah from the t-800 terminator before he was killed and shock by a soilder called t-3000 before the other terminator called Pops and Carl who was sent by some one else to protect Sarah back in 1973 and Kyle in 1984 after he arrives from the t-1000 then destroying both t-1000 and the other terminator t-800 of himself then t-800 pops carl sent Sarah and Kyle to 2020 to help the other person who was sent by a new leader who took their son john’s place name Grace to protect Dani Ramos from rev-9. Sarah told kyle grace and dani by in 1973 about the terminator pops carl she was safe with him but she didn’t tell them who sent t-800 carl to protect her but she knows John was dead in 2029 and then they meet again in the cabin the t-800 terminator guardian pops carl he got older grew a beard with his hair grey and got married to a woman name Alicia and her son Mateo Kyle & Sarah want to know what happen when their is no fate and why didn’t he come with them before Pops explain and didn’t tell them earlier he was sent by dani ramos before grace to help each other protect Dani from rev-9 and to avenge john’s death who was killed by a soldier name t-3000 grace dies and t-800 guardian pops carl gets update in liquid metal and no longer damage but still an endoskeleton machinerev-9 and t-3000 are both terminated in one and that’s For John. Pops needs a vacation and he won’t be back cause he’s getting to old for this as for Kyle, Sarah, & Dani needs to get ready after they watch 10 year old Grace at the playground with their family, the former determined to avert her death and legion’s rise as for their son John’s Kyle & Sarah would would make love to be a mother and father if their son would ever be born again. That’s exactly how the all Terminator storylines gonna work like that in mind.
Seriously. I’m 60 and so enjoyed these episodes. But. To leave it ending after Genisys pissed me off. Just saying. Oh and not counting Dark Fate. I would have had a better role for
And with all this AI moving forward and scifi from the past. Well. Becoming reality.
Shouldn’t we be a bit concerned.
Since we have a great bit of alcoholics and substance abusers running OUR USA.
It didn’t make any sense like that since James Cameron both produced Terminator 2 & Dark Fate even David Ellison too t5 & t6. John was dead twice who turn into t-3000 should be in Dark Fate instead of Genisys. As for James Cameron’s production after having a nightmare Sarah Connor attacked Miles Dyson and his family in T2 instead of T-800 who killed John with a woman and her son and didn’t explain this to them when he never cuts his skin arm in Dark Fate but in Judgement Day it sucks. Kyle Reese didn’t warned Sarah once again about it in Dark Fate back in the late 1998. Kyle should have stayed alive in 1984 and help Sarah to protected their son John from the second Terminator and Kyles dies in 1995 before the third t-800 who had a mission from to protected him with the help of Sarah from the t-1000 Sarah conner now dies in 1997 before Rise of the Machines in 2004 Salvation 2017 and the last Terminator movie in 2020 puts 2 words Dark Fate Genisys together to team up together with T-800 Terminator Guardian Carl Pops, Sarah Connor, Kyle Reese, Grace, & Dani Manos battling the other t-800 terminator of himself with the t-1000, rev-9 & T-5000 who killed and shocked John Connor in the future in 2029 based on Terminator 1,2, & 3 judgement day & Battle Across Time 3D in 1998 that should make perfect sense like that Right?